62. Natural Recovery Breakthroughs: Keith Ellis Bridges Stroke and Long COVID Science

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Yeah. So so yeah. This dumb cut. It just, so I stopped running outside in the beginning of September because it was raining every single day here, during hurricane season, and it was really annoying. I was like, oh, I've survived a stroke. Like, why am I why am I putting myself through all the torture of running outside all the time, getting soaked in the rain? I survived a stroke. I'm running 20 miles a day. Like, what is the deal?

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So I started going inside, and now I'm struggling to get back outside. And I should because now I could take the hat off. It's not hot enough, I think, to get sunburned every day. Because I don't just shave my head. I, like, bick my head, which is really Wow. That's that's a little bit different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm a little bit different if you can't tell, but it's, so so here's the weird thing about shaving my head. I'm 41. Everybody thinks, like, oh, you're balding. I'm, like, no. You could see every fall for hair follicle. Like, I don't even have, like, a receding hairline.

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I just hate haircuts, which is also weird. Right?

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Because razor blades cost so much for now. Because that was the original 10.

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30 years ago when I was, like, 10, I was, like, I wanna be. I was a cool kid, right, growing up in Jersey. I grew up in nineties basketball.

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Everybody was shaving their head even before they were balding. I I don't know if they preemptively knew they were gonna bald later in life, but I like so so that's the whole thing. And then, I can't not pick my head because I really hate even when it grows out like a millimeter. It's very annoying to me. So I just I shave my head every other day like like a regular bald guy except for I'm actually not bald. I'm just a maniac.

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And as you can tell by my outfit, you're nicely dressed. I'm wearing a hoodie. I cannot I cannot not wear a hoodie.

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So yeah. Anyways, enough about me and my my esoteric or what? That's not the right word. Eccentricness.

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That's also not a word. But, yeah. So, Keith, welcome to the podcast. It's great to have you here. I know we chatted a couple days ago. Yeah. Let's kinda get into it because I think what you, are gonna talk about today is kind of important, strokes 2 hours, at least my 2¢.

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Yeah. So we wanna get into a little bit about your thing, and we'll we'll kinda your background, your your your what you wanna talk about, which I think is, again, really relevant to stroke survivors, especially because we're often immunocompromised. Even if you don't have MS and you're just a stroke survivor, which is something I shouldn't say because nobody's just a stroke survivor. It's a really brutal thing. I just happen to have 2 things, which is weird because I was never a guy that wanted the thing. Like, I cannot be further from where I wanted to be and envision my life going. I yeah. So I'll shut up. And, Keith, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and yeah.

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Sure. So, you know, my my name is Keith Ellis. I'm a I'm a scientist. I'm a I'm a professor. So by training, I'm kind of an organic chemist and, what's called a medicinal chemist. So medicinal chemistry is kind of the academic discipline that does drug discovery.

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You know, base basically, we the students that I train that work for me tend to go out and get jobs in pharmaceutical industry doing doing drug discovery. So kind of my work has always been, kind of what I think of as early stage lead discovery.

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So it's, about understanding kinda disease states and looking at new molecular targets for to help treat diseases and then trying to find new small molecules to be what we call a hit, and then we optimize that into a lead. And then once a lead's really optimized, then we we that's a drug candidate. Right? And it moves to development process to to go on and become a a drug and get test tested in clinical trials and introduced to some work.

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So that's kinda my my background is I sit in that kinda scientific ecosystem at the interface of of looking at human health, looking at disease, and and at a molecular level why diseases occur, and then trying to come up with solutions. That that's kind of the person in my position. The medicinal chemist is really the one that's initiates the process of starting to find solutions to help treat diseases and make make, people better.

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Right? So what I've been working on lately is I wanted to back in early 2023, I wanted to start working on long COVID. And I I went into the scientific literature, and I did what I normally do. It's like, okay. Let's look at the disease state. You know, COVID hit in, you know, March of 2020.

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It had been kinda 3 years. We understood a little bit about acute COVID infections, which are kind of the the when you first get it. And then long COVID had started becoming a a thing by early, 2023. You know, people suffering these lingering effects that were different that they got a little bit better from an acute COVID infection, but then they got sick again. But they got sick in a little bit of a different way.

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So I went into the scientific literature and started looking at long COVID, and really my my goal was to to start working on long COVID the way I work on oncology projects, in my lab is mostly what we do now. I've done some antibacterial work in in the past. And I went into the scientific literature and was kind of of surprised, a little frustrated, because the starting points that I needed to really do rigorous drug discovery the way we do it now in the the genomic and the proteomic era with with modern science. Despite all the work being done on COVID and and long COVID, there wasn't enough information in the the scientific literature to, to really have those starting points yet, which, like I said, was it was frustrating. It was it was actually surprising. Right? With a lot of money going into to COVID and long COVID, a lot of grants going out, ton of of literature papers being published.

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But no one was kinda piecing together the puzzle yet for what was causing long COVID at the at the molecular level. The way I really wanted them wanted to see the data for for starting what we think of as more traditional drug discovery because there weren't really any good molecular targets that had been identified, as the starting point.

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Yeah. So quick question because yeah. So long COVID, I guess I didn't start hearing about it until about 22, so it doesn't Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that tracks a little bit that there wouldn't be Yeah. Intensive research, especially at the early stages if you're starting at the beginning of 23 there.

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Question I have, well, I have a lot of questions, but I'll start with, so long COVID, are you seeing from your research thus far, are you seeing particular demographics? Are you seeing particular targets of people that are kind of experiencing long COVID? Because I actually it's weird. Since the time we first connected till now, I actually have met a couple of stroke survivors who have had a stroke either probably due to COVID. This is the thing that happens with stroke survivors. It's like we often get diagnosed with a stroke and, like, there's a there's a lot a lot of factors or very minimal fact. Like, nobody seems to ever have all the pieces to the puzzle. It's not like it's never as easy as, like, you broke an arm. That's how you broke an arm is, like, playing a sport or doing this.

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So I'm curious because, yeah, I think a lot of strokes are, like I said early on, was are are more susceptible to COVID.

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I know there's a lot of back and forth. There's a lot of weird theories and a lot of research, but I think people that are immunocompromised in some way are definitely more susceptible to COVID. No matter how we feel about COVID anywhere in the world, COVID is a real thing.

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It happens to people. And I think long COVID obviously is a thing. I think people are again, still a little skeptical there, like, you know, but I also think it's a thing, right? Because you, if you get the flu or some other sort of basic cold. Right? Like, you have it. It's finite. It kinda happens. It might be a little prolonged, but, like, worst case scenario, even if it's like a hell of a cold or a cough, it's what a month generally, or you're at least going to the doctor to see is there something more significant wrong. But, so, yeah, I'm curious. What are you seeing in that regards in terms of demographics and areas? Yeah.

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So it's it's it's really interesting into a certain it's one of those to a certain extent, there's kinda no rhyme and reason.

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Okay. There are some trend lines, you know, you know, scientists, like, we wanna study everything. We want rigorous statistics. Those kind of studies, nobody's done them yet. But you can definitely from just observational studies and and, anecdotal evidence, you can see definite trends. So let me let me back up and start with this. Uh-huh. So, you know, an acute COVID infection has typical symptoms associated with it. It's the it's the ridiculously high fever. Like, when I had when I had COVID, I've had Omicron. Like, my fever got to, like, a 100 and 3, almost a 104. Like, that ridiculously high fever, the fatigue. It it's kind of like what we all know feels like getting flu or getting the cold, and you're you're completely you know, you're sapped of energy, can barely get out of bed, bad fever. And then the, of course, the respiratory complications, if there's breathing issues, as you get more severe, you get more involvement of cardiovascular respiratory type symptoms. So then most people will recover from an acute COVID infection. One of the things the studies have shown, is there's about a 10% chance of getting long COVID every time you get COVID. So the more times you get COVID, it actually increases your chance of of it developing into long COVID.

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So in the way it typically runs is you get your COVID infection, you get better, but anywhere from 3 to 6 months later, you actually start getting worse together. Again, a lot of times there are some lingering symptoms that you never got over.

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And then there's new symptoms that develop, for long COVID that are part of the routine symptoms you see with an acute COVID infection. And long COVID, the symptoms constellations typically, fatigue, brain fog, you know, not being kinda mentally cloudy.

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There's usually some kind of chest pain, shortness of breath, cardiovascular type symptoms.

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People sometimes, will get POTS, which is postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome, meaning they'll get a heart rate increase just from standing up or moving positions. They have can have a and it's not caused by by low blood pressure. It's kinda up.

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That's ruled out when you when you end up getting diagnosed with POTS.

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And that that's the light headedness and it can contribute to the brain fog. They get dysautonomia, which is due dysregulation of the autonomic nerve nervous system that controls breathing, heart rate, circulation, all of that. So they can often have a difficult time maintaining an upright posture. Right. So those are all the symptom constellation more of long COVID.

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And interestingly, we know long COVID is kind of its own thing As early as late 2020, people were already starting to get diagnosed with long COVID. The the numbers kinda skyrocketed moving through 2021 and and into 2022. And so now to get to your demographics question. From what I'm seeing and what most people, say, it it tends to hit a little bit of an older population. The the majority of people are, I I like to say, like, 30 to 65. It's kind of that age range. Now there's been a lot of studies now on kids having long COVID and kids can definitely get it. But the the main population, the biggest population seems to be more of those middle ages. And interestingly, it seems to hit women this fortunately. It's like a 7 30, 70 30 split, hitting women worse than men. And one of the other things, and you alluded to the immune system, it it does seem to hit people that have some kind of stressed out or compromised immune system. And here's you were talking about running when we first started. Yeah. One of the patient populations that everybody kinda kinda scratches their head about is, like high endurance athletes and like really high performance athletes seem to have disproportionately contracted long COVID. Most likely because their immune systems are really stretched thin and overworked already from the high performance athletic activities that they're involved in.

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That's surprising, actually, because well, for lots of reasons. They're they're really healthy. Right? Yeah. How how but, you know, real real strenuous exercising, the high performance stuff, the marathon runners, the triathletes, a lot of times they're training so hard. Yeah. It stresses out the immune system. And they're they actually have a higher prevalence of things like getting cold and flu anyway. And it does seem like a long COVID also hits them as well. But, yeah, it surprised me when I first started talking to all those people because it's like, you guys are super healthy and in shape. How can you be getting long COVID? But but it it appears it puts them at risk because the the immune system is so stressed. That's actually that's interesting for a lot of reasons because I feel like so I do pretty extensive training, but I almost wonder a couple of things. Like, I break up my training. Like, I know that sounds silly, but I do a lot. I do a good chunk in the morning.

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I'll do another chunk later in the middle of the day or the afternoons versus some marathoners that just go straight

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40. But also, I mean, there's that, and then I'm thinking about you were talking about women disproportionately being diagnosed with long COVID. And I think what's interesting there is looking at my own wife, and the women in my life, like, typical moms, right, tend to be stressed out.

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No matter what I do, I could do everything for the day, and my wife will still somehow be stressed out because she just stresses out. Right? And so being a parent right? Like yeah. And they're exposed to more of the whatever the kids bring home from school and, right, they're exposed to a a larger diversity, and they they are always under stress.

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They chronically don't get enough don't get enough rest.

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Right. That's something. Things, will will stress your immune system out. Right? And it probably puts you more at risk for things like getting lung COVID. Yeah. It's interesting too. The symptoms you were describing of lung COVID are honestly, I think I I don't know if it's a societal thing, if it's a me thing. Like, the symptoms you were describing, obviously, some of them are related to stroke, brain fog. That's an interesting thing because I don't know if I mean, obviously, if you're a stroke survivor and you contract COVID, you gotta be super careful. But, honestly, you might I wonder if some don't even realize they have long COVID, or is it long COVID? Is it just being a stroke survivor? Right? Brain fog, like, you know, if you're not the healthiest stroke survivor yet, you might still have some of those cardio cardiovascular issues. It's just weird.

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I'm thinking about all those things. It's like, you know, you were saying something about standing up, like, you can't stand up straight. And I'm like, Well, I've you know, fingers crossed. I'm afraid to even say this, but I I successfully, to this point, avoided COVID.

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And, I just, like, I was laughing in my to myself about the, standing up straight in COVID and, that will clear. Great. Now I'm having brain fog because I can't favor I can't remember what I was gonna say here, but it was, it was interesting because, like, these are all symptoms that I have, but I probably wouldn't have long COVID because you have to have COVID first in order to get on COVID.

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So that's interesting to me.

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Yeah. What what, yeah. So it's, trying to think. Going back to the so, yeah, let let's tie this kind of first part back to get stroke servers. So, obviously, if you're a stroke server out there listening, this is something to be aware of. Obviously, you probably, I don't know. I generally try to stay away from people. Like, that's that that's the one advantage for me as a service driver. I try not to go around people as much. I that not it it's not because, well, that's because for me, I decided to become very introverted after my stroke. I think a lot of us do.

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I know at least early on, especially 2020, because my stroke timed up right with the pandemic, like, literally Yeah.

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I've been had had the stroke in December 2019, went to rehab, went back to the hospital for February of 2020, took, like, 3, three and a half weeks for them to diagnose me with MS, then they sent me back to rehab to work on the left side of my body that was partially paralyzed from the MS.

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And so I came out right at COVID time. So I didn't really give it a thought. I mean, I know many people have do the mask thing.

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Honestly, I don't know. I don't care if masks work or not. Like, people are just fucking gross in general. So when there's a global pandemic and they're they're, like, put a mask on, I'm like, okay. Sign me up. Stand 6 feet away? Sign me up. I want that. I I still want the 6 foot rule. Like, I was just in the store today after the gym, and I'm like, this person's, like, standing behind me in the grocery checkout. And, you know, that's a small little belt on the Yeah. Grocery stores. It's like, could you just could you just fucking wait until like, you're cramping me up. Like, just stay back. Like, yeah. I want that on a regular day. But, so yeah. Where what else could we, I mean, I'm sure we can talk about a lot of things, but, you know, I'm where where where where do you see this kind of going next with with long COVID, and and how do people differentiate, you know, the diagnosis for long COVID, I'm not I don't know if you're familiar with it, but, you know, I've like I you said, it started in as kind of the end of 2020. I didn't start hearing about it. Again, despite me saying very isolated for a long time and probably until 2022, which is probably why I started hearing about it then. Yeah. What are some things people can look out for? What are what's kind of the next move?

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Well and and this is this is part of the problem with with long COVID. You know? If you think you have acute COVID, you you get a test. Right? And whether it's a rapid test, whether it's PCR, you can you can debate what test is the best for that.

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But there's at least a test for an acute COVID infection. Right.

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Unfortunately, at this point, there's not really any clinical laboratory tests that your doctor can order for long COVID. Right? Because, there it's a there's a couple issues with it. One is the symptoms are they vary a lot, especially person to person. Right?

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There's some there's some of these core symptoms that everybody seems to get, things like the brain fog and and the fatigue and even some of the cardiovascular involvement, like the shortness of breath.

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But those are common to a lot of other things. Right? So they're not they're not unique to long COVID in a way that makes you really confident than it can be diagnosed. A lot of people with long COVID, it it's like they're they get this core set of symptoms, but then they get a bunch of the other symptoms that are associated with long COVID that not everybody gets. So it makes every case everybody almost gets long COVID in their own special way.

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Right? Because some people have more of the cardiac symptom involvement or the parts of the dysautonomia.

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Some people have, GI issues. Right? Gut dysbiosis or they give a leaky gut, that kinda has has been thought is thought to tie back to kinda viral persistence in the GI tract as a a viral reservoir as one of the things that's actually driving, long COVID on a a more continual basis.

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So it's difficult to diagnose. From the beginning, there's no, like, biomarker clinical laboratory test for it, which drives the physicians crazy.

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Yeah. I know a lot of people that I've talked to with long COVID, they get very frustrated because they'll go to their primary care and not really get any help. They'll get they'll get told to go home and rest. Right. You'll get over it. It's just fatigue. And, like, 2 months later, they're still in the same place and nobody's helping them. Or they they go to the primary care and then they get bounced around to a bunch of, specialists between the cardiologist and the neurologist and the GI guy. They'll just they're they're kind of on that that endless loop of going to physicians, and nobody can tell them what's wrong because when you do run clinical lab tests on people with long COVID, they all pretty much look okay. Right? Because there's no specific test. There's nothing that's off in normal laboratory testing for somebody with long COVID. There's there's just not really a good way to detect it with the available clinical laboratory stuff.

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Yeah. Now there's a a set of scientists. They've come up with a with what, they call the the microplot hypothesis. It's one of the the few hypotheses on what actually is a causative mechanism behind long COVID kind of physiologic. And they developed a laboratory test that lets them test for microclots, but it's a research lab test. You can't go to your doctor and just get it ordered.

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It's something a scientist has to run-in a research lab or some of those these specialty lung COVID clinics can run testing for for these microclots, but it's it there's long waiting lists. It can be expensive to get the testing done. Most normal people are are that think they have long COVID. Like, you have to make the make some serious decisions to go after those because you need some resources and time and dedication to actually go down that path. Yeah. What what else is interesting too is because someone of those symptoms like you said, you you they're sending you to a specialist or sending you here, there, and the other place, which endomodist itself is not the worst thing. Right? Because if you are having some cardiovascular issues, like, shortness of breath, like, I believe me, I wish I knew that sooner because probably could've avoided my stroke, maybe. And, so on the one side, it's good. Right? People are getting tested for all these things. They know, like, okay, good.

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You go to the cardiologist, doctor checks out your heart. Mhmm.

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That's good. That checks out. I mean, it is frustrating to not have a diagnosis, especially if you feel like crap. But it's also good to know, like, okay. Well, it's not a major heart thing. Cool. Yeah. Go to the neurologist. Again, expensive, but hopefully, you have insurance.

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It's maybe a more expensive co pay. But, again, it kind of eased your mind, like, okay. Great. No brain tumor. No no weird thing happening. But yeah. So so guess peep like, how are peep do you know how are people actually are people actually getting diagnosed with long COVID? Like, how are people arriving to the conclusion that they do in fact have long COVID? I guess is kind of a good question to start with. I think it it's it's a little bit of of a scattershot. I I think it's been around long enough that some of the primary care physicians, the elite physicians will diagnose it.

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Okay. Diagnose it. But I think it tends to be more of like what you said. It's it's almost like a diagnosis of exclusion. Yeah. It it's like, okay. We tested you for everything else. You're not dying of a tumor.

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Right. Which is good. You don't have you don't have MS. That's not why you have dysautonomia or you don't have another neurological condition. Okay. You had COVID, and you never really felt better. Oh, okay. So this is this is long COVID. So I think that's part of it is the physicians are getting there with with defining it as a based on symptoms Right. And based on a diagnosis of exclusion.

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And then, you know, people are spending a lot of time researching in on the Internet themselves when they don't feel well and are are coming coming to that diagnosis when there's nothing no other answers. Which is which is still not the best thing because a lot of people, including myself, like, we've all done it to some degree. Mhmm. I don't care what background, ed education anybody comes from. Even doctors. Right? Like Yeah. Even doctors who aren't necessarily a doctor or a physician in a particular field, like, they probably even like, hey, this is freaking weird. Like, I've never experienced this before. I I'm sure we all end up on WebMD, and that could be a whole rabbit hole, you know, by itself. Usually, it goes nowhere or it goes to the point where you're convinced you have a thing and you go to your doctor and they remind you that you do you are in fact not dying because you're talking to the doctor at the doctor's office. Yeah.

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So that's interesting, the sort of, diagnosed by exclusion, which is not ideal, I don't think, for anybody.

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That's honestly, I kinda have that with my MS. It's like they they did that. Did all these tests. They did the spinal tap, and they're like, well, it's not this. It's not that. You know? And, like, I'm still a little weary. I'm like, even now I question it. I'm, like because my particular type of MS is unique.

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And, you know, I always I my doctor, like, we only do annual MRIs now because we've been a little bit of a longer period of time since I got diagnosed.

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And, of course, if anything showed up, it would be clear as day that something more significant was going on. But I always feel nervous about that because we switched last year or 2 years ago from every 6 months, which was annoying, but also MRIs are, like, the worst thing ever, especially if you have a brain injury or you have MS where you like, it have you ever been in an MRI machine?

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They're No. Actually, I have. Okay. Well, they are usually using them well, for me, there's you using it to scan my brain, but they're you're trapped in a cage like, silence of the lambs type of thing. Like, you know, you can't move your head. And maybe this is me again, but I'm 6 foot 8.

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Like, I I I do not wanna be shoved in a tube. I can barely fit in a tube. In fact, the 1st couple years, I had to be in, like, a giant open MRI, which, by the way, is not as open as you would think. But they make so much noise. Your head just wants to explode. And you're like, the, this pain is not worth it. Like, I was so scared. It's like, it was so it's so loud. It's so annoying. They're so terrible. They're great machines. They're useful for everybody in the medical field.

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They're important, but thank god that the sounds they make just it's like a it's like okay. I've never been a prisoner of war, so this is probably extreme. But it's a form of, like, torture. Like, it feels like torture because you can't move. I can't move. You can't you barely breathe. You had to be in there for an hour, and it's the loudest thing you could possibly imagine. Like, it's like imagine just somebody drilling a drill bit into your ear for, like, you know, anywhere from an hour to 2 hours. They get a little faster. They can kinda speed it up, but it's not yeah. It's terrible experience.

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Sorry. I got way off track there. But Yes, sir. Again, it's the exclude, diagnosis by exclusion, and it's, you know, again, I think it's better than than nothing. It's not ideal, but I, I yeah. I'm I'm curious to see what kinda happens with that as time goes on because it'd be nice. Like any diagnosis, people just want an answer whether it's good or bad. You can't I mean, thankfully, for more oh, maybe this will be the the next question. People that are suffering currently from long COVID, what do we know about, like, trajectory? Is it just, like, constant noise? How long is long COVID, I guess, is a good question. Do we know?

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I mean, it's a case by case basis because because, basically, with long COVID, it it seems like the the body has not completely cleared the virus. Right?

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So there's this thought that something that the virus is still in the body. It's this concept of viral persistence, right?

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Where somewhere in your body and one of the places people talk about a lot is the GI tract and in the gut, right?

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That there's a viral reservoir there that it's, it's low level, right? It's not enough to give you that acute infection, but there's still pockets of virus in the body so that there's still viral proteins around. They're having all these deleterious effects, but you're not getting that, that, acute, that the acute COVID infection that gives you the high fever and in everything else. So some of the people I talked to with long COVID, they've had it for multiple years, and it's not getting better.

00:31:42.940 --> 00:33:33.785
There are some people that that tend to to get long COVID, and they'll they'll maybe make some changes, do some things like rest. But, typically, people don't seem to be recovering from it very well on their own. And at this point, there's there's a couple experimental therapeutics that are that are out there in the literature. There's a few things out there, but not not a whole lot for people to do to help themselves. There's some over the counter supplement stuff that, people are using to kind of repurpose to, to deal with some of the symptoms, like people, that have kind of that really bad immune response, the mast cell activation. They'll take, antihistamines to help with with that aspect of it. There's people that are trying, nanokinase or some of those other type, of over the counter products to try to help, like, degrade spike protein and try to clear the virus better. I I from what I'm seeing, those certainly have some effect. They help some people, but we're at the point of if any of that stuff really worked that well, people would word would get out and people would be getting over long COVID. And it's it it I think it people try it. I think it probably has some marginal effect that it helps them a little bit. Some people, it really helps a lot. But overall, most of what has has been out there that people have been trying for long COVID, especially the the over the counter stuff hasn't worked but so well because it's not really specifically designed to in any way address what's going on at being being and actually causing long COVID.

00:33:34.325 --> 00:35:17.369
Yeah. And I think what you said earlier was interesting too because the symptoms vary so much, Like, you you know, it could be shortness of breath for 1 person. It could be a multitude of things for another person. So not only is it hard to diagnose and very much like stroke, it's very individualized. Like, there's a lot of great like, and I'm gonna I'm gonna just kinda talk from the stroke side. Like, there's a lot of great therapy teams and a lot of great, physical occupational therapists, a lot of great doctors out there, neurologists. Like, everybody's doing the best they can, but, obviously, they themselves are not stroke survivors. They also they know enough to know that everything is very individualized. So it's like how when they when stroke survivors first, you know, get diagnosed as clearly having had a stroke and they go to rehab, like, they're given all the basics sort of, and they're like, okay. These are the big things. Like, if you're, you know, if you're paralyzed and you're either side, you know, and you're wheelchair bound, your first big goal probably is to walk because that's the biggest thing to get independence. Maybe not for everybody. Most survivors, like, they wanna be able to re walk. They wanna be able to eat. They wanna be able to do the the sorta the word is escaping me. But the bigger tasks in life, you know, and then you get down into the fine motor skill things as time goes on in recovery, and that plan looks very different for everybody. Yeah. And I'm thinking with what you're saying, like, it's it's almost long COVID almost can't have maybe it can, but currently, like, in this in this form with so many things, it's almost it'll almost be impossible to come up with the drug that just kinda it would almost be, like, is there a magic pill for stroke?

00:35:17.369 --> 00:35:47.630
Like, believe me, I am hoping somebody's working on the magic pill for stroke because I would love to take it. I'll be the 1st person in line. So that makes it hard, I imagine. Right? Because of all the varying symptoms, developing a drug, like, some may work and some may not. And so it's really about education. It's about, you know, because I know you and I first kinda connected through you had heard my one of my episodes on breathing, which I definitely wanna hit on because I think that's important, for lots of reasons.

00:35:47.769 --> 00:36:27.635
And I think, you know, I'm curious to take because I know you said something to me when we first shared it. And maybe, yeah, maybe we can go into that a little bit too. I mean, I definitely wanna get your thoughts on what you think about, you know, how you know, I'm sure. Right? The the varying symptoms plays a big role. Right? So it's like Yeah. It's more about coming up with a collection of things that could sort of work, I think. Well, at this point, I I I look at this more as there there was concept 10 or 15 years ago. It was a kind of a big thing in oncology. And it was this thing about driver versus passenger mutations.

00:36:28.539 --> 00:37:27.860
And it was what's what's the mechanism that's actually causing the tumor growth and the tumor to be aggressive. Right? And it was known in a tumor, you have all these different mutations. And it was that it was asking that question, well, which one's the really important one that's driving the tumor growth and which ones are kind of, you know, making it worse, but they're kinda along the way and they wouldn't actually be making it that bad on their own. And I think we and going back to kinda when I went into literature to kinda really start working on this, that's what I was looking for was what are the the causative mechanisms behind long COVID? What we would call pathophysiology. Right? What is what are the the really well understood and worked out mechanisms of 8 a happens, then b happens, then c happens, and that's what causes long COVID. Right? So and that's there's only been a little bit of work done on that so far.

00:37:29.199 --> 00:38:30.710
The microclot hypothesis and the scientists that have worked on that have done a really good job on developing that that particular mechanism, and it it does appear to be caused for long COVID. And it appears like it it either does or can it can explain why a lot of the symptoms downstream happen. Right? So, the microclots hypothesis is basically that the the COVID spike protein that's still left in the system from the viral reservoirs in people that get long COVID, that spike protein causes misfolding in proteins that that are normally making up, blood clots. So you have these natural proteins that occur in us that that form our our normal clots when you cut yourself. Right? And what happens is the S the it's, and this has been shown with scientific data, the spike protein binds to those clotting proteins and causes them to misfold.

00:38:31.730 --> 00:38:43.304
And these micro clots that you get in long COVID are actually misfolded clots and that actually polymerize, and and they they form what are called amyloids.

00:38:44.085 --> 00:39:00.820
And amyloids is a term some people are familiar with more from Alzheimer's. Right? When we talk about Alzheimer's, we we talk about, getting amyloids of tau protein and a beta in the brain, and that's what what is the causative mechanism behind Alzheimer's.

00:39:01.760 --> 00:40:22.724
Basically, the in the microclots hypothesis, the spike protein causing protein misfolding and these microclots, the microclots are amyloids of clotting proteins. And and so they're causing dysfunction in the circulatory system, in the vasculature, in the the endothelium of the blood vessels. They're causing inflammation. They're causing the brain fog. They're causing oxygen deprivation, which is where you get the fatigue as well. They're causing the cardiac symptoms. It's these microclots that are that are abnormal clots that people are getting that seems to be one of the driver mechanisms behind long COVID. Okay. So so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm just trying to follow along because I'm definitely not a scientist. And, so it seems like with you've identified that kind of GI tract, like, is the goal to sort of I mean, I know the the long term goal is to develop develop anything really that'll help people either eliminate this or get rid of it. But, ideally, try to the goal for you guys and your team is to kinda or really everybody in that field working out on COVID is to kinda get to the root sooner so that Mhmm.

00:40:22.925 --> 00:41:13.159
Steps a, b, and c don't actually ever even happen and never have to diagnose long COVID. Right? Yep. So what are what I mean, I know we talked to us a bunch of things, like, a week or 2 ago when we chatted. What where where are we at with, like, trying to get to that? Like, in my head, I'm already thinking, like, when you said GI tract, I might had immediately run to, why don't people just chug a bunch of kombucha and just, like Mhmm. I know that sounds crazy, but, honestly, like, that feels like one of those things that, you know, because we're not at the point, at least, currently, it doesn't sound like everybody even knows. Like, yeah, some people might be healthy, some people might not be or might be unhealthy, some people might be healthy.

00:41:13.724 --> 00:41:31.590
The GI tract is always a weird thing, especially because sometimes that doesn't matter what level of health Mhmm. Ish. Yeah. Yeah. It's kinda I know I'm saying it very dumb thing by by telling everybody to drink kombucha, but I almost, like yeah. I mean yeah.

00:41:32.469 --> 00:41:47.315
So there's a couple there's a couple of of strategies here, basically. Right? So it's kind of I think it's most people will accept that long COVID is caused by viral persistence.

00:41:47.315 --> 00:41:58.519
Yeah. The question is, where does the viral persistence occur? Right? In in I think in some people, it is happening in the the GI tract.

00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:28.960
Right. There have been a few studies on on that, and that's actually that's kind of the next project I'm working on. It's something we're working on right now. That's but that's kind of something we're working on in the future is something to to help specifically with that viral persistence in the GI tract because it's something that will probably be best dealt with with a combination of maybe pre and probiotics Yep.

00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:38.505
Plus some other components that are known to help with, pathogen, infections in the GI tract.

00:42:38.824 --> 00:43:11.775
So that's that's actually a kind of a future direction we're working on. But so one of the issues though is GI tract isn't the only site where viral persistence is taking place. So, the place that that has really kind of pushed forward and and we've pushed forward with is focusing on the microclots because wherever the viral persistence is happening, the next thing that happens seems to be the microclots, right? Cause it's proteins from the virus that are causing this.

00:43:12.554 --> 00:43:27.230
And in, in part of doing the work on microclots, there was a a a small clinical study that was done on trying to help treat the microclots in people with long COVID to see if that that would help with the long COVID.

00:43:27.929 --> 00:44:01.358
And, these particular researchers, they used a a cocktail of 3 anticoagulant drugs called triple anticoagulant therapy. So they used that, and it was about 90 patients they did the study on. All of them had long COVID. All of them had microclots. Right? And they they gave them the triple anticoagulant therapy depending on how severe their, long COVID was anywhere from, like, 3 to 6 months. And they had an 80% success rate in people recovering from long COVID.

00:44:01.875 --> 00:44:23.889
And they actually did the work to show that, the micro clots were actually gone in the people that recovered from long COVID when they took this triple in a coagulant therapy, in this study. So the issue with that is triple anticoagulant therapy, it's it's 3 anticoagulants.

00:44:24.590 --> 00:44:54.869
Right? So it's it's a pretty powerful cocktail of anticoagulants. There's a high risk of bleeding associated with it. Right? So there's a safety issue. And, understandably, most physicians are not really prepared to prescribe it for people with long COVID. If you go to some of the, long COVID specialty clinics, you can get they will prescribe it there, but, it's really expensive, and you have to pay out of pocket to go to those clinics.

00:44:54.929 --> 00:45:16.869
Yeah. So when when I was working on this and I was getting kind of this this read on the literature, I I there were a lot of long COVID people that were really frustrated because they knew triple line coagulant therapy existed. They knew it had a pretty good success rate. They knew it wasn't really all that safe.

00:45:17.250 --> 00:45:32.065
Right. And they knew that they couldn't really get it because because most physicians wouldn't prescribe it. Or if they if they could get a prescriptive physician to prescribe it, it was gonna be super expensive, and it's not affordable for a lot of people.

00:45:33.244 --> 00:45:54.755
And that was the point where I kinda did something different than what I normally do, more more kind of nontraditional. I was thinking outside the box. Right. I said, well, what the long COVID patients really need is a less powerful, little bit safer version of triple anticoagulant therapy to help with with microclots.

00:45:55.934 --> 00:46:02.914
So and that's actually where I kinda used my background as a medicinal chemist and and had been familiar with natural products.

00:46:03.570 --> 00:46:25.474
I basically reverse engineered the pharmaceutical triple anticoagulant therapy into an over the counter version of it that has natural ingredients. And I reverse engineered it using the mechanisms of action of the the actual pharmaceutical drugs. So I took kind of the mechanisms and how they work in the body.

00:46:25.775 --> 00:46:47.344
And I went and I found natural ingredients that were not as potent, but much safer, to put into an over the counter product and, custom designed a a over the counter supplement for people with long COVID to take to help them with microclots and try to recover from long COVID.

00:46:48.045 --> 00:47:20.673
Right. And you said, again, when we spoke a couple weeks ago, you said, obviously, it's not as powerful, but kinda what what were some of the sort of the results you've been seeing with it so far? So, you know, I I so I I went ahead and I I designed it, and a lot of this scientific work that I was was doing, I wanted to share with you with long COVID. So, I I have a substack that I that I put all the science up on and, was talking to a lot of people with long COVID and and built a small audience.

00:47:21.454 --> 00:51:19.980
And they've been they've been buying the product and and trying it for just short of a year now. And people are having some good success with it. So they try it and typically, it helps with the fatigue. It helps with the brain fog almost right away. Right. They they get I also put an ingredient in there that helps with oxygen and and tissue oxygenation. So it it really does help people feel better and have some energy to function in life. But it it helps clear up the brain fog, helps with the fatigue. It I I have had people tell me it helps with the cardiac symptoms. I've had people tell me it helps with the dysautonomia and that ability to kind of maintain an upright posture and issues they're having with their autonomic nervous system. It seems to be working for a lot of people to help them with their their long COVID and help them be more functional in daily life. Yeah. And I think I think what's interesting is I'm a big believer in this now because I, you know, before my stroke, in 2019, I probably would have said, like, yeah, I just thought very differently about things. And now having not been in the health care system up until the age of 37 and then being forced into the health care system and going through it. And there certainly are good drugs out there that work, that I need, that I want, that, you know, like, I I don't have seizures anymore, but I did early in my diagnosis and got it back under control with medication. And, you know, I'm, still nervous to not that's a pill that I will never stop taking until until they miraculously like, until somebody pulls it out of my hand, because I don't wanna have a seizure. I don't wanna have another stroke. I'm doing everything in my power, but I'm also a lot less skeptical of certain things than I used to be. I think a lot of people probably maybe are starting to like, I feel like maybe because of COVID, maybe because of everything, people are really taking a deep look at things and, like, okay. It's great that there are pharmaceutical companies out there. There are good drugs that people need, but there are also a bunch that people probably don't need necessarily. And, obviously, all the anticoagulants are amazing for obvious reasons, but, you know, do you need, like yeah. I think kind of what you're doing is very interesting to me because you're you're sort of reverse engineering, and you're not claiming that you're making a magic pill for long COVID, but you're there's a couple of things here. Right? Like, I think for me, I see it as like, okay, these are natural ingredients. They're probably like I haven't looked into the specific fakes of each ingredient, but I'm guessing Mhmm. They're probably good for you. Just like I joked about kombucha, like, okay. Well, if you don't like, if these things can help, period, even if you didn't have long COVID, There's really no risk. Yeah. It may not be as quick, but they're probably gonna spin the wheels, get you kinda hell individuals healthier overall. Mhmm. And that's how it worked for me. I mean, I had the stroke at 37, got diagnosed with MS, and I was like, well, I got 2 choices. I could either fight through all this and figure it out, or I could give up. And I'm definitely not the person to give up because I'm from Jersey. Right. On top of that, you know, you start going down these paths and you sort of, not that you're you're you're solution here for long COVID, but like, it can actually like, if somebody is very focused on long COVID and kind of this is helping, right, that gets some ball on the wheels turning on the individual where not everybody, but a lot of people will start to be like, okay. Well, this is working. What else am I doing in my life or or taking a medication for where I can kinda again, it's not an overnight process, but it's like, yeah, you start to kinda I think it's really interesting because I think yeah.

00:51:19.980 --> 00:52:05.355
I mean, there's to me, when you look into some of these natural remedies, I mean, you think about, I don't know if you've heard of this, but I am sure you have. But, like, a lot there's a lot of talk about psychedelics now with the current incoming president and the Bobby Kennedy, and PTSD for veterans. I know you're up in Virginia, so you're probably well familiar with all my old friends in Williamsburg there and, Oh, yeah. And all the all the way down to the coast. It's a very military heavy area. But, yeah, we're seeing more and more talk and research about these natural things that really do the trick. And it's not in every instance. There's never gonna be one yeah. It's, it's interesting to me, and I hope people don't dismiss it.

00:52:06.135 --> 00:52:13.690
You know? And again, I was guilty of this prior to my stroke. I would people I mean, even the I joked about it with you with breath work.

00:52:13.690 --> 00:52:34.335
Like, when Sony said breath work to me a couple years ago, I would be like, get the hell out of my face. Like, I'm not you know? And then I I kinda changed my ways. So I was like, maybe I'm not always right, and let me take it. So Well and and in this case, like, if there were all of a sudden a drug that was actually really effective, there was really good data on for long COVID.

00:52:35.275 --> 00:53:08.525
Great. Like Yeah. If people still wanted my natural thing, I I guess I would keep silent. Yeah. Well, there's always Go take the pharmaceutical. Right? We know how to make good pharmaceuticals. There are a lot of good ones out there. If you if you have something seriously wrong with you Yeah. Then there's there's likely a drug to help. The issue I have, and this is this is again kind of informed by my sitting in the position I am in the drug discovery pipeline, is from where we are with right now with long COVID, we are likely 10 to 15 years away from any kind of real pharmaceutical drug.

00:53:09.030 --> 00:53:23.414
Yeah. Because they take that long to develop. Because Right. Even even if you're gonna repurpose existing drugs, you're like a 3 to 5 year clinical trial away Right. From being able to really convince physicians that you're ready to do that.

00:53:23.655 --> 00:53:50.369
Right. So my big thing was, well, what are these people supposed to do? Because no one is helping them. Yeah. And there are there is nothing really designed to help them based on the science we know about long COVID. And that's why I designed what I what I did, and and my my goal was to make something that peep would be available to people that would be safe, that would be affordable, that no one could tell them they can't have.

00:53:50.510 --> 00:54:16.920
Right. And then let them choose for themselves. If they wanna try it and it works and it actually helps, great. If they wanna try it and it doesn't work, like, I'm sorry. I'm I'm trying some more solutions. Hopefully, the next one will help you. Right? But at this point, that's kind of what there is right now when it comes to long COVID. And it seems wrong to just let people linger and suffer indefinitely Right. With nothing.

00:54:17.925 --> 00:54:59.855
And the the ingredients that are in there are natural. They are safe. We're using high quality organic stuff, GMP conditions. Right. And everything that's in it, you can buy separately and take. Like, there's nothing there's nothing weird or proprietary or anything else in it. It's all components that that people can know if they can take and handle, like turmeric. Yeah. Right? And it's turmeric, willow bark, danshin, which is a traditional Chinese, remedy. And, I threw in some beet root extract Yeah. To help with ox tissue oxygenation. Right? So that fatigue and that and that brain fog.

00:54:59.855 --> 00:55:02.514
So very simple ingredients, very clean.

00:55:03.349 --> 00:55:26.494
And it the it's the mechanism of each of the components that is why it is should work and does work for long COVID, and and help people. And, what's the other thing I was gonna say? Now I'm for now I'm I'm not quite having some brain fog, but Yeah. I was just gonna say, though, those all those ingredients in and of themselves, like, again, they're not gonna do this.

00:55:26.494 --> 00:55:49.434
They're not necessarily powerful enough to fix something overnight, but they're definitely ingredients that are well worth taking. I mean, depends if you're into vitamins or not, but, like, they're good supplements that just even if it doesn't cure the long COVID, it may have some other great effect. And that actually where I was going. What it was, especially the turmeric Yeah.

00:55:49.635 --> 00:55:55.255
Also has anti inflammatory and and antioxidant activity. So does the Danshin.

00:55:57.420 --> 00:56:04.960
The beetroot extract also is a strong antioxidant. Right? So there there's actually other health benefits, the stuff that's in there.

00:56:05.260 --> 00:56:16.324
In addition to those specific mechanisms of action being the exact combination you need that's been shown to have some efficacy against micro cloth in long coat.

00:56:17.025 --> 00:56:45.465
Yeah. And I think, I I gotta say, I love turmeric. It's just, the only thing I don't love about turmeric is, like, if you get it on your hands, it's kinda like a yellow mustard seed. Sometimes, it's just really annoying because you it just it never comes off as easy as it seems to get on. It's very, very frustrating. And I'm only joking about that because I literally had, like, turmeric flavored mac and like, they were cover macadamia nuts the other night. That's a snack with but there there was turmeric all over it, and then I got, like, orange Cheeto fingers.

00:56:45.465 --> 00:57:03.704
I was, like, feel disgusting. It's great. I know they're healthy, but, like, it just yeah. I felt like a fat kid eating a bunch of Cheetos because my fingers were all dusty from the turmeric. But it's, not something I really should complain about, but it was it was annoying at the time. So yeah.

00:57:03.704 --> 00:57:43.340
So where do we go from here? I mean, obviously, you've developed that with long COVID. What do you you said 10 to 15 years to develop a drug. I do wanna talk about the breathing thing, really quick because you I I know we had talked about breathing. Mhmm. And there was I I always recommend, like, stroke survivors really if you can get over the word breath work and you can realize it's just simply breathing exercises, and I feel like people still they'll listen to me, but they'll be like, oh, shut up, Will. And I'm like, listen. I don't care if people do breathing exercises or do breath work or do any of this shit, but, like, they ask all the time.

00:57:43.340 --> 00:58:09.255
Like, how did you go from £530 to being a, you know, a 6 foot 8 to you know, I'm gonna say 275, but it's actually under 275. Again, I don't wanna sound smaller than I actually am, but that's how I run 20 miles a day is that I fix my breathing. And I'm I'm curious because I worked with, Petro McGowan over over out of Ireland, and he's, from oxygen advantage.

00:58:09.960 --> 00:58:32.005
Took his courses, took his certification. And I haven't dug into long COVID too much with breathing, but I know he's seen some good results. And I think this is again goes back to what we talked about earlier is that not everybody's symptoms are gonna be the same. So, like, if breathing yeah. I mean, because you you said sometimes with I'll I'll let you say what you guys say.

00:58:32.005 --> 00:59:52.025
But yeah. Because I was curious about long COVID and breathing in particular because you had some interesting loss. Well, so in in I I actually looked at it a little more after we talked, and kinda here here is the way I'm thinking about it now. You know, breathing and the breathing exercises we're talking about, they have a physiological effect. Right. Right? They're they're not just, like, to calm you. They're not just to ever since, yeah, calm down, take a breath, but but they're they're more than that. Yeah. Right? Because they do have a physiological effect. And and I know at least some of the the breathing exercises, one of the physiological effects they can have is they can actually stimulate the vagus nerve. Yeah. Right? And they can have an impact on heart rate and those other things. Interestingly, there is a a whole body of literature on how vagus nerve, effects are involved in lung COVID. And people have been using vagus nerve stimulation as a, you know, somewhat of a partial treatment for some of the symptoms in long COVID, including some of the cardiovascular one and and and some of the neurological. Yeah. So I think there's definitely a a lot of merit in the approach of really doing breath work and working on breathing for people with long COVID.

00:59:52.485 --> 01:00:10.869
It's it's I'm sure exactly like it is with with stroke survivors. Right? It's it's a at some point, it's a lot to ask of somebody that can barely breathe Right. To to do breath work and breathe intentionally and in in a specific way. It it's gotta be overwhelmed. Right? Yeah.

01:00:10.869 --> 01:00:53.155
But at the same time, I I think there's probably is a lot of merit to it and probably does have good physiological effects for long COVID because it does it does have these effects on the cardiovascular system and on the vagus nerve. Yeah. And I think that's the big thing too with breath work is is we often hear, right, like, I heard it all my life. The reason I'm so passionate about breath work and I'm not saying it's gonna fix everybody or it's great for everybody. I just think it was something that I really wish I knew how to do better, which sounds ridiculous because we all know how to breathe. Because if we're not breathing, we're not living. Right. But, really, it's that optimization and to see slowing down.

01:00:53.295 --> 01:01:15.114
It's it's really like again, birth work sounds so dumb. I still hate the word even though I say it all the time now. But it's like, if I knew that my 1st year in the wheelchair when I couldn't walk and I couldn't do anything, I certainly couldn't run. You know, they give you the I'm sure you've been to enough hospitals to see the stupid spirometers they put on everybody's tray table.

01:01:15.114 --> 01:01:18.894
Like, those Mhmm. Those have their place. They are great.

01:01:18.954 --> 01:01:25.969
I had surgery where they had to go in the side of my body, and I had I was on blood thinners, and I was already a stroke survivor.

01:01:25.969 --> 01:02:02.809
They were fixing the little thing in my heart, and it's, you know, that was very necessary to, like, blow hard through that spirometer after because it kinda helped with pushing out some of the blood after surgery. Mhmm. So when we when I talk about breath work, and I think when you're talking about breath work, Keith, we're talking about, like, actually not just breathing through your mouth, like, what do they say all the time, in through your in through your nose, out through your mouth. That's actually that's fine. That's, like, it's not wrong, but it's also, like, you can optimize the breathing to get better, and that's what we're talking about is, like Mhmm.

01:02:03.264 --> 01:03:19.630
Really optimizing. We don't just mean take a bunch of deep breaths with your you know, the old thing where you put your arms up, which actually you should do the exact opposite. You should bend at the waist to put your hand hands to the ground. But, yeah, it's it's it's really it's I'm actually it's I'm glad to hear you say that because I, you know, I hadn't I hadn't really gone back to look at literature myself on long COVID and breathing, but I was like, I'm pretty sure they've done a lot of stuff on this. And it's Mhmm. Again, I think it's it depends on your long COVID cyst, symptoms. Right? Like, if if breathing I can't imagine there's a lot of people with long COVID that aren't having breathing issues, but maybe maybe you're having all the other symptoms. Okay. So then maybe breath work isn't ideal, but again, it goes back to the vagus nerve and it's so complex. It's so many things. Well, and, you know, there there's also in long COVID, you know, maybe they're not having issues with breathing while they're stationary. Right. But one of the big issues with long COVID is people experience what's called post exertional malaise or PBM Okay. Where they will work out and then they will crash so hard. They need 2, 3, 4 times as much time to recover.

01:03:19.769 --> 01:04:11.809
Like, if they if they overdo it on one day, they might need 2 or 3 days to recover. And it's I think it it has really the potential to have an impact there as both they're going through the more strenuous things they're doing, but also once they're crashing and trying to help with that, you know, If you get shortness of breath while you're going up the stairs, okay, maybe that's not the best time for breath work right then. Right. But but working on it and helping with the the respiratory and the cardiovascular, shortness of breath issues in long COVID, but then also thinking about it for things like post exertional malaise and and also potentially doing it to help with things like POTS and dysautonomia, where there's there's autonomic nervous system dysregulation, are also, I think, things that are are would be worthwhile.

01:04:12.510 --> 01:04:50.215
Yeah. I'm sorry. That just got me thinking because I know a bunch of stroke survivors, and I I again, I'm kinda hopping back and forth between stroke and long COVID here, but you just said something that really it resonated with me because I was I didn't think about this because I do breath work every single day, and it's just become routine and a part of my life the last couple years. But it's, there's a lot of stroke survivors. Again, similarities to long COVID where Mhmm. Stroke survivors that I know that are pretty mobile now, they're, like, a lot better. They're trying to go to the gym, and they'll go to the gym, And they'll they'll do have a great day.

01:04:50.215 --> 01:05:38.300
They'll feel great, and then they will crash very similar to what you just described. And I just wonder I wonder if I just did this so long that it never even occurred to me that, like, I just people think it people just say a lot of things to me and they think it's I guess I got into breath work, and I just sort of Mhmm. Steadily built up the endurance and the breath work simultaneously that there was no period of time. Like, it was kind of like once I decided to really take breath work to the next level and I started running, there was no crash. But before, when I was just lifting weights, when I was probably still a little big and a little stressed, be you know, I was so big when I started running.

01:05:38.300 --> 01:06:30.309
I was not I'm still not a pretty runner, but I was, I was about 350 probably when I started running. But it's, yeah. But, yes, when I was just working out lifting weights, so was that sort of crash? And I'm just thinking out loud. It's like I I wonder if some of these my friends and show survivors are are just, like, they're doing that same thing as they're overexerting it because they're not really, you know, taking that seriously. They're only doing it, like, once a week, you know. Yeah. And again, with long long COVID stroke, it doesn't matter what you have. If you are doing the breath work, I think it's more and this doesn't have to be breath work. Whatever you're doing this is like if somebody is taking your solution for long COVID. Well, if they only take the pill every other day, you know, it it it's probably not going to help you as much. Yeah. Yeah.

01:06:30.309 --> 01:08:19.114
It's just like any anybody who's taking medications. They've had, like, the medications are prescribed 30 pills for 30 days or whatever the prescription is because if you and I can't believe this happened. I mean, we all forget a medication once in a while. I'm pretty insane about it, but, like, I I don't think I've ever missed maybe I'll miss an evening or a morning, but I never missed both rounds for myself. I'm surprised how many people just, like, don't give a fuck. I'm like, your medication for clients is a huge issue in in the health care field. And people just voluntarily not being compliant because they just don't wanna dial in it and pay attention and actually do it. Yeah. I mean, I'm not gonna lie. As a stroke survivor with a little bit of right hand weakness still, I am not a fan of popping up with those pill bottles every 2 because I try to do, like I'll do anywhere from I usually do it in 2 week increments, but I'll I I've gotten enough pill boxes to to do it a month out, and it's like, I really every time I get to the end, I'm like, ugh. I can't I don't wanna do it, and I I actually make my wife do it. Half the time, it's the one thing she still loves for me. But that's just too that the better that you you're yeah, the compliance thing. I just I never understand that. It's like, why? Especially with stroke, like, would you you wouldn't wanna have you don't wanna have 1. You definitely don't wanna have 2. Why would you ever yeah. It's it's my ball going to me. So, yeah, I guess I guess we can kinda wrap it up here. But, anything else that you think is important for stroke survivors? Anybody experiencing long COVID? Anybody worried about getting long COVID? Like, again, water I mean, I don't think.

01:08:20.449 --> 01:08:30.949
Well, maybe before as part of the wrap up, maybe we could ask this. Is are I forgot. I might have already asked this.

01:08:33.024 --> 01:09:03.465
So when people catch COVID and, again, particular, stroke survivors were a little, maybe, susceptible more susceptible to it. There is there currently, like, is it just something that develops in people and there's really nothing they can do for that person? We don't know. There's no rhyme or reason yet as to, you know, it are stroke survivors more susceptible to long getting long COVID after an acute COVID infection?

01:09:03.925 --> 01:09:22.658
I haven't seen any data or any information like that. Right now, it we don't understand enough of the pattern of who gets long COVID and who doesn't. And then once somebody does get long COVID, like, there's there's just not a lot out there right now.

01:09:22.994 --> 01:09:45.109
There's there's some, you know, like I talked about before, some of the OTC supplements that people are using. There's what I've developed. Right. There are a few pharmaceutical interventions. You know, I will say, some of the physicians will try if they think it's long COVID, they will put them on maybe one. Right? They'll put them on Eliquis.

01:09:45.810 --> 01:09:56.363
But what I'm what I have seen from talking to long COVID people is that usually doesn't work, which if you're a believer of the micro thought hypothesis, it explains exactly why it doesn't work. Right?

01:09:56.363 --> 01:10:30.024
Because the single each of the the single agents in triple anticoagulant therapy, if you use them alone, don't do anything. You need the combination of all 3. So and that that's really the, the the key to actually helping with it does seem to be having all three mechanisms on board. And what I would say for for stroke survivors that have long COVID, they have to be kinda really careful. Right? Because most of them are on some kind of anticoagulant. Right?

01:10:30.324 --> 01:10:37.729
So what I would say is if they think they have long COVID, well, obviously, always talk to your doctor first.

01:10:37.729 --> 01:10:41.090
Right? Because I'm not a physician. I don't give medical advice. Yeah. Same.

01:10:41.090 --> 01:11:05.449
But, if they do think they have long COVID, if they are a stroke survivor, if they are already on an anticoagulant, don't take my product. Right? Because it's it's meant for people that aren't on any anticoagulants. Yeah. But if they do, they could actually supplement with the natural ingredients that have the other mechanisms of action to see if that would help. Interesting.

01:11:08.229 --> 01:11:15.909
Yes. Did we talk I know we're gonna wrap up, but now I got another another question. Just yeah.

01:11:15.909 --> 01:11:47.300
I mean, it it would be nice if Eliquis would just honestly, I I'm on Eliquis. I pay I gotta reduce cost, I guess, at this point, because I have some stupid card they made me print out. But, yeah, I mean, if I pay full full price like I used to, it'd be like yeah. I used to have to pay full price, and I have health insurance. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong in this world, but, like, I don't know how I get to pay for my own health insurance and then have to pay for certain things, but not other things. Somehow, Eliquis was getting in there early on.

01:11:47.734 --> 01:11:54.395
$300 a pop every month, for Eliquis. It damn well should block everything. Yeah.

01:11:55.654 --> 01:12:10.170
Yeah. Oh, I know. I wanted to ask. So with your particular supplement, and we'll go. I'll I'll definitely put the all the links and stuff in the show notes, but, you could certainly give it a shout out. But I, my question was, so it has those natural ingredients.

01:12:11.189 --> 01:12:18.375
Mhmm. Just thinking about myself, like and I don't have long COVID, so I guess there's no real need to take it. Mhmm.

01:12:18.514 --> 01:12:49.425
But, like, because is is is there I'm just curious for my own kind of knowledge. Like, if you're on something like Eliquis and you also get diagnosed you know, you have a drug survivor on Eliquis, you get diagnosed with long COVID, or you figure it out somehow that you have long COVID. You said you recommend not taking your product. And I'm just curious what because some of those some of most of those ingredients that we talked about are all kind of natural. Is there Right.

01:12:49.425 --> 01:13:11.164
So, nope. I I let me ask you a question first. Being on Eliquis, do they give you any grief about, taking any supplements that were were consuming any natural in a coagulant? Right? Turmeric is a factor 10 a inhibitor to the same way that Eliquis is.

01:13:11.625 --> 01:14:06.484
Like, did they tell you not to take additional turmeric supplements? You know, that's an excellent question. That's probably in the fine print that I don't read because I I am fighting tooth and nail and not because of the cost of Eliquis and nothing to do with them being bad. I actually just wanna get the fuck off Eliquis because I am 6 foot 8 £275, and I walk into things I don't want. Not because it hasn't been helpful, not because I don't love and appreciate those that built Eliquis because I definitely needed it the 1st few years. But I'm like I was just at the point where I'm like, I'm running 20 miles a day. I'd like to be off blood thinners. Like, do I really need to still be on them if I've lost half more than half my previous body weight? Like, I've lost Mhmm. I've lost an entire NFL lineman, you know Right. Like, off of my body. Do I re I mean, I'm all for it.

01:14:06.484 --> 01:14:09.604
If my doctor says I still need to be on it, I'll be on it.

01:14:09.604 --> 01:14:24.698
If I I haven't really I bug the shit out of my cardiologist every year, and I'm going to go see him next month. And I can't wait to ask, how are we doing? Do we still need to keep this around? Uh-huh. So yes.

01:14:24.698 --> 01:14:35.664
So I have not read the fine print, but I eat turmeric. I eat all all those things. So so my my kind of blanket of if you're taking the anti acquired one, don't take it.

01:14:35.664 --> 01:15:31.239
It is figuring that you don't wanna double up and increase the bleeding. Right? Because Fair. For with with the natural ingredients, there really isn't that much of a bleeding risk. For instance, if you have surgery Yeah. They will tell you to, there's some supplements they'll tell you to stop taking. Oh, yeah. Sometimes they say term turmeric and sometimes they don't because it's a known to be a natural anticoagul. So, but the any of the integrations alone isn't really that bad Right. Putting the 3 of them together. And if you add a pharmaceutical anticoagulant on top of that, that's that's when it's, like, well, a doctor should really be telling you whether that's okay and not me. Right? Right. No. That's fair. So but for instance, in in your case, if you're already taking Eliquis, you got long COVID, you said, okay. I want Keith's cocktail.

01:15:31.595 --> 01:15:42.654
I wanna take the other natural ingredients. You could take some Dan Shen Right. And you could take either, baby aspirin or some white Willow extra. Yeah.

01:15:42.715 --> 01:17:43.479
Right? Because those are the other the other two pieces. And that would actually give you that full full three component combination that would help with the long COVID. And I might also be an anomaly because I think no matter if I I don't need it. But if I did, I'd probably take it. But, again, I don't think the amount of turmeric like, I I'd have to be chugging turmeric along with Eliquis to, like, really do something. You know, I'm so much bigger than the average person that it it I think that's why I kind of ignore those things. And, obviously, if I if I was having surgery, I would be very And that's the thing, and that's why I I'm very confident in the safety profile of my product because Oh, yeah. Like, one dose has, like, 400 milligrams of terroirganin. That's the the 95% human. Yeah. You can actually buy on Amazon, like, 22 or 25 100 milligram turmeric, like and take that. So you're so far under, like, any kind of normal date like, you're way below the max daily dose that it it's fairly safe. And, again, for what I've designed, it's the it's all of it together Right. That's helping long COVID. And it's it it is safer because it's it's the natural ingredients. So for most people, if you try if you think you have long COVID and you tried to take it, 1 of 2 things would probably happen. Either you're gonna feel better or you're not. Yeah. Right? It it's really not gonna make you any sicker or do anything Right. You Yeah. To try it, which with the state of treatment for long COVID right now is actually a, like, a big win for a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I wanna thank you, Keith, for being here today. I definitely enjoyed this conversation. I'm sorry that I had brain fog in the middle of a couple of things, but that is, not unusual.

01:17:44.420 --> 01:19:25.579
And, yeah, it's been really interesting. I think a lot of people I think I think a lot of things, long COVID is definitely interesting, especially with stroke survivors. I I just worry sometimes, like, if a stroke survivor does catch COVID and it they think they have long COVID, I'm always a like, not skeptical, but, you know, it's very hard to distinguish, like, is this it's a game I play all the time with myself. Is this stroke? Is this MS? Is this stroke? Is this long COVID? Like, there's a lot of yeah. It'd be nice to see some of this research get closer. I think, you know, what you've developed is amazing, because I think, again, all these things again, even if you took the supplement and it didn't work, it's still natural ingredients that I think will do something. They're not harmful. They may not do they do they may it just may not solve the problem that you're hoping it solves. But honestly, I take a lot of supplements even with my MS. I take a bunch of, like, b b b or d or c I don't know. One letter of the alphabet vitamins and, like, I don't know. Is that really helping? I mean, it's not hurting, but I can't tell you how much it's helping. So, you know, I think and again, not to no no no shade on those drugs, you know, or things like yours. Like, I take a lot of natural supplements. I just really at the end of the day, I I think I'm just so big as a human being. I can't tell what's what sometimes. I'm not sure anybody can really, but I it's definitely not doing any harm. So, yeah, if it's working for people, I I check it out. I think we're entering this era where people are are finally ready to be more open to Yeah.

01:19:25.819 --> 01:19:29.420
The fact that some things help some people and don't help others.

01:19:29.420 --> 01:19:48.164
Yeah. And we there has to be more room for solutions that aren't one size fit all. I can there has could be more room for solutions that are natural and that people feel more comfortable and safer with Yeah. That are non pharmaceutical.

01:19:48.560 --> 01:19:55.439
Yeah. Or not $300 a pop for the month for one thing when you take 10. So Yeah. Yeah.

01:19:56.000 --> 01:20:10.184
Again, thanks for being here, Keith. I really appreciate it. And, again, I will put all Keith's links in the show description. So, again, thank you, Keith, very much for your time, and, it was great to meet you. And, yeah, have a good one. Thanks a lot.